Cherokee Transmission Problems - Podcast - Contest!

"SteveLehto" (stevelehto)
08/04/2016 at 09:40 • Filed to: None

Know anyone with a 9-speed transmission equipped Cherokee? Ask them about the transmission. Turns out many of them are defective and Chrysler is flummoxed when they are presented for warranty repairs.

Oh, and last week I asked readers to submit vocabulary words to me via Twitter (@stevelehto). I often find myself using an unusual word or two in my podcast and I asked for requests. I took THREE (3) words from the suggestions on Twitter and worked them into my podcast. The first person to tell me what the three words were (comments below or via Twitter) will win a free copy of one of my recent books (Tucker, Winged Cars or Turbine Cars) - your choice.

One clue: I use the words in alphabetical order. So if you have three words I used that were not used in alphabetical order, keep looking.

And if you know someone who has a 9-speed Cherokee, tell them that the trouble they have with their transmission is God’s way of punishing them for buying an automobile with too many speeds. The only thing that should have that many speeds is a bicycle.

Here is the audio:

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And the video:

And the pic at the top is from my recent trip to WCSX in Detroit to tape an interview about Preston Tucker with Peter Werbe.

Follow me on Twitter: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Hear my podcast on iTunes: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Steve Lehto has been practicing law for 24 years, almost exclusively in consumer protection and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! He wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

This website may supply general information about the law but it is for informational purposes only. This does not create an attorney-client relationship and is not meant to constitute legal advice, so the good news is we’re not billing you by the hour for reading this. The bad news is that you shouldn’t act upon any of the information without consulting a qualified professional attorney who will, probably, bill you by the hour.

DISCUSSION (54)

E90M3 > SteveLehto
08/04/2016 at 09:46

I think Chrysler went with the 9 speed because they knew they were going to have a 66% failure rate among the gears. So when a third of your gears fail, you still got a 6 speed. Some would call this defective, I call it over engineering.

Steve in Manhattan > SteveLehto
08/04/2016 at 09:51

Why does this truck need a 9 speed slushbox? Maybe in an S Class or a 7 series, but in a goddamn Jeep? 5 speeds are probably adequate.

OPPOsaurus WRX > SteveLehto
08/04/2016 at 09:56

Interesting as always. hopefully that doesn’t mean your the next to get axed

SteveLehto > OPPOsaurus WRX
08/04/2016 at 09:57

“Axed”?

Cé hé sin > Steve in Manhattan
08/04/2016 at 10:01

But it’s not a truck! It’s a jeep.

Real trucks have more than nine gears...

Kinja'd!!!

OPPOsaurus WRX > SteveLehto
08/04/2016 at 10:04

one by one it seems all the good contributors are leaving or being let go like the guy from Fox Trot, or Doug. Well, I guess you can;t really get let go from Oppositelock.

jimz > OPPOsaurus WRX
08/04/2016 at 10:07

Steve posts on Oppositelock, and I doubt he gets paid anything for it. but unless I’ve missed them, it seems like his podcast posts have stopped getting promoted to Jalopnik.

LongbowMkII > SteveLehto
08/04/2016 at 10:08

A Chrysler transmission prone to failure? Surely you jest.

jimz > Steve in Manhattan
08/04/2016 at 10:09

CAFE.

it’s that simple. when you have more gears, you can keep the engine working in a narrower operating range and get better fuel economy. plus, with more ratio spread (the difference between the lowest gear ratio and the highest) you can still get acceptable acceleration while having a high overdrive at the top. Steve mentions this in the podcast.

Cé hé sin > LongbowMkII
08/04/2016 at 10:10

It’s a ZF one and seemingly most issues are about how it works rather than it breaking down. Some Hondas use it and have troubles too.

Wil Haginen > E90M3
08/04/2016 at 10:11

Brilliant.

Wil Haginen > Cé hé sin
08/04/2016 at 10:11

What’s the “C”?

jimz > SteveLehto
08/04/2016 at 10:13

Since you’re a gear-head, if you haven’t already read this I recommend it:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/02/zfs-9-…

it goes into great detail of why the 9HP acts the way it does. the 4-5 and 7-8 upshifts (and vice versa for downshifts) require the moving of a dog collar clutch like used in a manual or DCT. Moving a dog clutch requires a torque interruption and means a perceptibly slower shift. Now it’s pretty clear the calibrations for the early production Cherokees were screwed up, but- like a DCT- this design is simply inherently going to feel differently from a regular automatic trans.

I will say that I did have a 9-speed 200 for a weekend, and didn’t have any complaints about the trans.

Takuro Spirit > SteveLehto
08/04/2016 at 10:13

Funny, I work at an FCA dealer and in the past 9 months that I’ve been here we’ve only replaced ONE 9-speed.

Lots of them get software re-flashes though.

jimz > Cé hé sin
08/04/2016 at 10:16

this. although the calibrations in the early Cherokees were seriously screwed up.

OPPOsaurus WRX > jimz
08/04/2016 at 10:18

thats more what I was thinking cuz he says something that he is an occasional contributor to Jalopnik

SteveLehto > OPPOsaurus WRX
08/04/2016 at 10:19

I’ll be here until they pull the plug. But I do also write for Road & Track.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > E90M3
08/04/2016 at 10:19

Kinja'd!!!

Not sure how it actually breaks out in terms of failed planetaries or failed lock clutches, since it uses a limited number of both to get a lot of combinations, but maybe...

SteveLehto > jimz
08/04/2016 at 10:20

I’ve read that and several other explanations for the problem. I do think there is something wrong with them beyond simply being a little different. We’ll see what happens.

Steve in Manhattan > jimz
08/04/2016 at 10:20

Still, I like breathing. A lot.

Steve in Manhattan > Cé hé sin
08/04/2016 at 10:22

Well, really big trucks ....

Justin Hughes > SteveLehto
08/04/2016 at 10:30

Thanks, Travis! :)

Wil Haginen > SteveLehto
08/04/2016 at 10:34

With the exception of “cattywampus”, couldn’t spot any “unusual” words. Ah well.

I had a thought about the claims to “operator error”. I’d imagine a 9 speed transmission has a VERY narrow torque range for optimal shifting. Conjecture on my part, but why else would you build in so many speeds into a transmission if not to try and constrain the engine to a very specific part of the power band? I wonder if the lab testing and road testing by FCA and ZF employees involved them driving the vehicles “hard” and letting the software work out rev and shift points, and the general public might be babying their cars (thus confusing the software a bit since the engine doesn’t reach the lower limit of the “optimal rev range for shifting”).

Not that this would excuse FCA / ZF in any way, mind you. But it might explain why ZF would think that nothing is wrong with their transmission design. I know many people that would be gentle on the throttle of a brand new car. Either way, spot on agreed with you, Steve, in that this still is clearly very much an issue and that ZF needs to design a transmission that can be operated by the general American public.

Now, I have a different question. Every lawsuit you brought up and every podcast seemed to focus on drivetrain related issues. Are there any laws protecting consumers from bad infotainment systems? Have you ever taken a case regarding a bad / poorly operating radio / nav / touch screen system? Has there ever been a buy-back for it? I’m just curious how far the consumer protection laws reach into the definition of a properly operating vehicle.

SteveLehto > Wil Haginen
08/04/2016 at 10:40

Cattywampus is indeed, Word #1.

Yes, any defect or condition that cannot be repaired will qualify as a lemon if the defect/condition is “substantial.” There is a whole thing that goes into figuring that out but I have had a lot of cars with non-drivetrain problems. Water leaks and infotainment problems are probably the most common. But it can really be almost anything.

DipodomysDeserti > Cé hé sin
08/04/2016 at 10:41

Why didn’t they just go with the ZF8? My wife’s has that in her BMW and it’s the best feeling auto I’ve ever driven.

EL_ULY > SteveLehto
08/04/2016 at 10:41

related kind of but not really:

A guy I know took his 06? Ram Cummins work truck in for a recall I believe for the parking brake. He picked up his truck and went home. When he got there, he has get out of his truck to open up a gate. Since the truck is a manual and it’s at very minimal incline, he sets the parking brake super tight as always. While unlocking the gate, the truck starts moving forward. He manages to jump out a bit but the 60 year old isn’t as quick as he once was. The very heavy super duty work truck crushes both his legs.

Is he going to after the dealer or the manufacturer for this?

SteveLehto > EL_ULY
08/04/2016 at 10:45

Wow.

Probably both at first but you have to figure out if the failure was because the dealer messed up or (possibly) the dealer did everything right but the problem was still the fault of Chrysler. Depends on state law too, but it will probably be an expensive piece of litigation.

BigBlock440 > DipodomysDeserti
08/04/2016 at 10:45

Because the 8 is for RWD applications, and is used in the trucks, Chargers, and Grand Cherokees. The Cherokee is FWD though, so it gets the 9-speed FWD transmission.

BigBlock440 > E90M3
08/04/2016 at 10:46

66% is 2/3s.

Wil Haginen > SteveLehto
08/04/2016 at 10:47

Regarding your other point to dealerships acting like you’re bothering them when you present them with a problem: There’s another tactic that dealerships will sometimes use: Exceedingly polite and jovial, but with the dreaded phrase: “Problem could not be replicated, system acting normal”.

I’ve had leaking windows in my VW that could VERY easily be replicated by simply taking it to a car wash. But you know, it couldn’t be replicated, and so no action would be taken. Didn’t matter that I’d offer to drive the service guy to any car wash of his choice and show him, didn’t matter that I had photo and video proof of the leak as it happened. They couldn’t replicate it, and their insurance / liability prevented me from driving them anyplace.

DipodomysDeserti > BigBlock440
08/04/2016 at 10:49

Gotcha. Makes sense.

EL_ULY > SteveLehto
08/04/2016 at 10:53

I know sometimes the recalls/service bulletins are a bit premature and get updated. Poor guy broke both legs and was hurting very bad. Thing is, his truck never gave him an issue before. Sometime brands issue these recalls because maybe a couple cars did it and it’s precautionary. On the other hand, there are known safety issues that never get an official recall.

Gads > SteveLehto
08/04/2016 at 11:10

- cattywampus, mercurial, wacky -or - cattywampus, mercurial, plethora

Gads > SteveLehto
08/04/2016 at 11:11

- cattywampus, mercurial, wacky -or - cattywampus, mercurial, plethora

jimz > SteveLehto
08/04/2016 at 11:18

cattywampus, mercurial, tumescent.

SteveLehto > Gads
08/04/2016 at 11:18

Two for three. Not Plethora.

SteveLehto > Gads
08/04/2016 at 11:19

Not Wacky either (too common of a word).

Gads > SteveLehto
08/04/2016 at 11:19

Cattywampus, mercurial, wacky or plethora.

SteveLehto > jimz
08/04/2016 at 11:24

WE HAVE A WINNER!

I mumbled “tumescent” so I was worried no one would get it.

Email me your address and tell me which book you’d like. Lehto@kennon.com

7:07 > SteveLehto
08/04/2016 at 11:43

Any clairvoyant insight on the Pacifica minivan using the same transmission? Reviews suggest the calibration has been worked out and they operate smoothly, but I’m a little hesitant to buy because of the 9-speed track record.

SteveLehto > 7:07
08/04/2016 at 11:50

I’d be hesitant too. I might be paranoid but paranoia has done well for me so far.

Cé hé sin > DipodomysDeserti
08/04/2016 at 12:27

It’s a longitudinal gearbox, designed for rwd. The 9HP is intended for transverse fitting so it has to be short which is the cause of some of the issues as it uses dog clutches and one of the gearchanges has to be slow and deliberate and involves power being reduced momentarily, something which feels alien to a driver used to a more conventional gearbox.

Cé hé sin > Wil Haginen
08/04/2016 at 12:38

Crawler, an emergency low gear. Hardly ever used.

That’s a 14 speed box. If you were to use every gear, you’d go from C through 1, 2 and 3 and then select high range with a switch on the gear knob and go back to 1 which has now become 4 (C isn’t a viable gear in high range) and on to 6. That gives seven gears. Each of them can be “split” into high and low (another switch) so 14. You could in theory go C(low), C(high), 1(low), 1(high) and so on.

Wil Haginen > Cé hé sin
08/04/2016 at 13:51

Thank you! Fascinating. So it’s like a mountain bike... The gears are the many gears in the back at the wheel, and the switch is for the big gears where the pedals are in the front.

jimz > Cé hé sin
08/04/2016 at 14:04

the other things are that the ratio jump from 1-2 is pretty big (4.70 to 2.84.) which could be perceived as a “hard” shift thanks to the abrupt change in engine speed. also, the 8-9 shift also involves reversing the rotation of one of the gearsets.

arl > SteveLehto
08/04/2016 at 15:33

I’ve also heard of complaints about the 9 speed in Acuras. It’s very interesting in that the 8 speed in the FCA vehicles (Charger, Challenger, etc) and the 8 speed in the current BMW line are praised by enthusiasts and auto mags as excellent autos.

So why the terrible jump in (at least perceived,) quality in going from 8 speeds to 9?

jimz > arl
08/04/2016 at 16:28

because the 8HP has enough room to add gear ratios with just your typical planetary gear/clutch pack/band brake like most other automatic transmissions. To get 9 speeds into a transaxle, they had to connect certain gearsets with dog clutches and shifting through those feels a lot different than a normal auto trans upshift.

SteveLehto > arl
08/04/2016 at 16:34

I’m sure there is something very different in the designs other than just the number of speeds.

Cé hé sin > Wil Haginen
08/04/2016 at 17:15

Pretty much, if you think of a bike with three sets of sprockets!

Cé hé sin > jimz
08/04/2016 at 17:16

I read the description of this which you can find on the internets and I concluded - witchcraft. And magic.

88 Tracer > SteveLehto
08/08/2016 at 16:30

I had an ‘02 Accord that need a new tranny at 50K. Did you see a lot of these cars have similar issues?

SteveLehto > 88 Tracer
08/08/2016 at 16:42

No, that one does not ring a bell.

Standard_Deviation > SteveLehto
08/09/2016 at 09:22

Are you seeing the same number of problems in Honda / Acura vehicles equipped with the 9HP?

SteveLehto > Standard_Deviation
08/09/2016 at 10:11

Comically, no. This could be because in MICH Honda has a lesser market share or it might be that Honda has better customer service. I suspect the latter.